Probably Still The Aim (Updated To Account For Pi-)

I found one, ONE, forum entry claiming that a 1950's lot of Cartridge, caliber .30, Carbine, ball M1 was loaded to 1,600 fps.  Minimum spec. is 1,900; ideal is 1,990.

Update: 1,600 fps drops us to pi- territory

That gives us 3d+1 pi-.  4-19 raw damage with an average of 11 which is halved after penetrating armor.

With a 7% velocity drop because of the cold, we're at 3d pi- (3-18, avg. 10).

Against a normal, human, target that's going to take a few rounds to stop someone with DR 1 winter gear on.  2 to get consciousness and 4 to get death rolls.

Remember, though, out past 330 yards, damage is halved.

That's 2-9 (avg 5) for the 1,600 fps stuff and 1-9 (avg 5) for the 1,488 fps.

That's TEN solid hits, on average, to get to a death roll.

I've found a few anecdotal accounts where troops were engaging at 400+ yards.

You're not going to see your impacts at that range on clothing and with the sights not agreeing with the bullet's path, you're probably not hitting either.

The right drugs will give high pain threshold and the cold will also numb the recipient of the round to cause even good shot placement to the torso to be ineffective.

But let's take them at their word that they saw the impacts and hit where they were aiming.  It'd be blind luck too.  The bullets would be hitting low because of the cold with up to spec ammo and even lower with the underpowered stuff.  7 to 10 inches at 100 yards.  28 to 40 inches at 400.

Even with high pain threshold, an average hit of 11 to the torso will get 10 to penetrate which gets reduced to 5 and that will get the bad guy to 5 HP and they continue to charge!

Nailing them in the vitals will get 30 points delivered and two death rolls.

Past the 1/2D range, though, it will take ten average hits to get a consciousness roll on torso impacts and two to the vitals to get death rolls. 

Now that we've gone through all that...

When did the Korean war end?  1953.

I know a bit about the US Army supply chain and I'm not thinking it's likely that the 1950's vintage ammo that's been tested understrength made it to the troops, even if it was made during the three years of fighting.  The Army tends to FIFO their stuff. 

Probably Just The Cold

Got a comment suggesting that M1 Carbine ammo in Korea wasn't up to snuff.

I can't find the information they're citing, but the looking for it did turn up some interesting stuff about cold weather and ammo performance.

An Army publication for snipers (FM 3-22.10, Sniper (Dec 17) referenced in this link) says the round will impact 1" lower at 100 yards per 20°F the temperature is below the temperature when you zeroed the gun.

FM 3-22.10 pg. 4-147. The change in the point of impact is best determined by referencing past firing recorded in the sniper data book. As a rule of thumb, a 20-degree increase in temperature will raise the point of impact by one minute; conversely, a 20-degree decrease will drop the point of impact by one minute. 

And that's with a spitzer shape, not a round nose; like the .30 Carbine!

Chosin was -35°F and if the troops had zeroed on a nice 75°F day there's a 100 degree difference, or a 5" change of impact at 100 yards.  10" at 200.  15" at 300...

That's assuming the cold soak didn't weaken the springs so bad the hammer doesn't hit hard enough to set off the, now, less sensitive primer...

Norma published a video showing that .30-06 lost velocity as it got colder.

Everything is in Godless Metric.

Room temperature average velocity is 2,625 fps.

28°F ammo is 2,575 fps. (1.9% drop)

0°F ammo is 2,532 fps. (3.5% drop)

Norma specifies 2,772 fps. for this round from a 24" barrel, so we're also seeing the effect of losing 2" of barrel in the test.

2,772 gets us the bog-standard 7d pi from .30-06.

2,625 drops it to 7d-1 pi.

2,575 gives 6d+2 pi.

2,532 gives 6d+2 pi. 

A 3.5% drop in velocity for an M1 Carbine goes from 1,990 fps. to 1,919.5 fps.

That drops it from 4d+1 pi to 4d pi.  Still plenty of energy to penetrate winter clothes.

Losing another 3.5% to get to Chosin temps (baseless extrapolation here) gives 1,850 fps and 4d pi.

With these numbers one cannot help but concur that the troops were missing their targets.

There's a couple of sources that mention the Chinese troops were drugged to the gills.  I've written about another case of bad shot placement and drugged up opponents before: Juramentado. 

M1 Carbine Vs Armor

The M1 carbine's .30 round cartridge does 4d+1 pi.  That's 5-25 points of raw damage with an average of 15.

According to High Tech p. 64, winter clothing can provide DR 1 at the GM's option.

That will mean that .30 Carbine M1 ball will easily punch it, doing 4-24 points of damage (average 14).

That's certainly enough to knock someone down.

But let's say that a Chinese winter coat is heavier stuff than mere winter gear.

Reinforced padded cloth armor gets DR 2.  3-23 points penetrate (avg. 13).

What about the theory that ice on the outside of the coat somehow provided more protection?

Ice is DR 3 per inch.  So, maybe DR 1 for a good coating of the stuff?  Still getting 2-22 through (avg. 12).

Still enough to get them unconscious if they blow their HT roll on a body hit.

So, I think we can say that all those troops were missing their shots rather than doing damage.

Even the rare hit on the web gear or ammo pouch doesn't account for enough DR to completely protect them with the persistence of the myth.

Shots past 330 yards get half damage.  2-12 (avg. 7) raw.

Even through the heaviest theoretical coat and ice, 0-9 (avg. 4) will penetrate; but 1-11 (avg. 6) is most realistic.  It'd take a couple of hits at that range to drop them, but with the low recoil of the carbine, it's doable.

The M2 carbine will do the same.

Assuming that the damages GURPS, I think we can dismiss the myth that the winter gear of a Chinese soldier in Korea was stopping rounds.

Vids On The Topic

It's been well covered.

Longer version:

I Thought Orangutans Were Bigger

 I was watching a video about gigantopithecus.

It's a 9' tall, 650ish lb. orangutan.  Maybe 700 lb.

Being the geek I am, I calculated the things ST from its weight.

17 or 18.

How strong is a normal orangutan?

I remember them being a lot larger, like 300 lb. for a male.

Nope.

Just 165 lb. on average for a GURPS ST of 11.  About the same as a chimpanzee.

Gorillas are 400ish lb. and rate a ST of 15 in case you're curious.

Rounding out the great apes is we humans at ST 10.

My Grandma Knows How To Suck Eggs

Please notice the quotation marks around, "the carbine couldn't penetrate a Chinese winter coat."

Why would I put those little bits of punctuation on that?

I'm fully aware that most of those "failures to penetrate" were almost certainly from missing.

It's not an obscure theory.

I'm speculating about the whiz-bang fancy new sights they added after WW2 are to blame because they can be fiddled with.

I've seen people pull the peep all the way to the longest range setting because it sets higher and that makes them easier to see without squishing your cheek down on the stock.

But that also means your shot is going to go high at close ranges.

This adjustment isn't present on the original rear sight.  You get two settings, just like the M16A1.

Then there's the windage adjustment knob.  Get a bored soldier playing with that and forgetting where it was when zeroed and you're missing to one side or the other.

I figured this out on my own because the German winter gear isn't significantly thinner than the Chinese stuff and the Carbine was well regarded enough to retain in service and keep developing after WW2...

Add It Up!

When you get a catalog in the mail, add up the value of all the things you're not buying.

That way you know how much you saved.

If you simply don't buy the things without adding up how much they cost, you're not saving anything, you're just not spending money.

You feel way more smug with a value assigned to it!

Gravel Belly

The gravel belly is sort of the military equivalent to the Fudd.

Its why a bullet-proof rear sight on an M16A1 was changed to a fiddly one on the M16A2.

But it's older than that.

You should see the complicated sights we put on our infantry rifles.

Then go on to not bother teaching the troops how they work.

The people who wanted and needed the vernier caliper quality in the rear sights are people compete on known distance ranges.

As WW2 progressed, we asked the troops if they were using the adjustments in their sights.  We interviewed captured troops.  We exchanged information with our allies.

It was a rare soldier who bothered to adjust the range setting.  It was nearly unheard of to change the windage setting.

So the Army responded by keeping the sights from the Garand and put them on the M14.  Then they added adjustable sights to the M1 Carbine.

Bahwah?

I would love to have God's video tape to see if all those "the carbine couldn't penetrate a Chinese winter coat" were actually misses caused by the rear sight being easily adjustable now and knocked completely off zero by the soldiers absent minded fiddling around with it.

I think things are different now, but I do note that the back-up iron sights we issue all have a range setting and can be adjusted for windage without tools.

A Project

A long, LONG, time ago...

Willard asked me about installing a bayonet lug on an M1 carbine.

When we found out that the front sight needed pressed off we kind of forgot about it.

I stumbled across a pic of an early configuration M1 carbine with a 30-round magazine in it and it reminded me.

So I went out to see what it WOULD take to updated it to the late configuration that's mostly associated with Korea.

Front-barrel band and bayonet lug is $29.

Rear sight is $35.

The tools to remove and install the sights are $100.

Plus taxes and shipping.

Then there's the, mandatory, M4 bayonet:  $150 to $900 depending on vintage and maker.

What amuses me about the project is how many people were converting their carbines from the later configuration to match the WW2 one.

Representative Sample

Wading into the CMP 1911 pond again...

The lifetime limit has been increased from one to four.

While I defend the idea of buying one for the provenance, I just can't justify four to myself.

This is where I start agreeing with some of the objections and evoke "mixmaster."

It's not a case where you can get one of each maker because the parts were scrambled several times since 1945.

I'm not in the two is one and one is none frame of mind with pistols I obtain for the having, not the using.

But every one of the three I have left in my limit is one more available to someone who wants that single example.

If I were to get another .45 Gov't Model, I'd get a blue one.

I still need me a 10mm example.

PS: Someone checked the market and $1,700 is about where the $1,200 condition guns are trading.

Make Up Your Gorram Mind

GOA emailed me bragging about what we got from the Big Beautiful Bill® the other day, how it was their goal from the start and how happy we should be about it.

Today they share a video from VSO Gun Channel that's complaining about being stabbed in the back by the Republican Party.

For fuck's sake, pick a fucking lane!

It's OK to say, "This is what we hoped to get, we didn't get it, but we got something and what we got, while not perfect, is at least a step in the right direction."

GOA has never understood how the sausage is made.

No compromise strikes again?

I'll take the incremental win.

A $0 tax plus registration lays the groundwork to have it declared unconstitutional because its entire legality hinges on it being a tax.  $0 is not a tax.  Sucks that it's going to take FOREVER to get it through the courts, but...

39 Years Old

GURPS was initially released this day in 1986.

FuzzyGeff and I bought our copies a bit later.

We didn't play it long because the 2nd edition was released less than a year later on June 2, 1987.

I played 2e a bit longer than many because 3e didn't make it to the AAFES bookstores while I was stationed in Germany.

But 2e lasted just longer than a year before 3e was released on August 18, 1988.

3e lasted 16 years and one day if you don't consider 3eR being released on July 7, 1994.

Some Other Circuit

A pro gun ruling came out of the 5th circuit, again.

I don't live in the 5th circuit, so telling me what a great deal it was doesn't really matter.

I live in the 11th.

While you're celebrating, could you, maybe, explain why this is good for the rest of us outside the 5th?

Because, as I read it, this is a circuit split on 18-20 year olds owning guns and we have the 5th saying 18+ can own and the 4th and 11th saying, "gotta be 21." 

Are you alluding to this circuit split means its more likely that SCOTUS will take up the case?

Stop alluding and say it then?

I'm happy for the residents of the 5th circuit, but you have GOT to stop acting like victories that don't affect a rather large population matter to us.

Not a lot is being done for Florida by the pro-gun forces and it's getting stale reading about how great it is elsewhere. 

It's Not Raining

Dear GOA:

Getting the tax on, some, NFA items knocked down to $0 while keeping the registration and enhanced background checks is a, mostly, good thing...

It is not a major victory for our rights.

It is NOT what you set out to accomplish.

You bragged about how you got the language for full removal of short barrel rifles & shotguns and suppressors into the Senate version of the bill before the parlimentarian squished that plan.

Now that we have crumbs rather than cake you're bragging like this was what you planned all along?

Gods it ticks me off the way you guys try to communicate. 

So Basic

Having a bit of a tiff with someone on Arfcom over basic dimensions.

A basic dimension is one without a tolerance.  No plus, no minus, it is what it says to infinite decimal places.

Most of the time that dimension exists as a datum for other dimensions.  Those dimensions have tolerances so the thing you're making can actually be made.

This person mentions this, but goes off on how you can never hold the basic dimension without some kind of tolerance on it.

To that I say bullshit.

I've worked places that held them on mass produced items.

I will say that you shouldn't use them unless that dimension is critically important.  It's expensive to set up to hold such a dim and uses more resources from quality control to assure it's being held.

But I did like him explaining to me my job for over 16 years. 

LOL

 

PSA

 

THIS is what happens when you leave the front door open and start paying to cool the whole outside!

Our parents tried to warn us.